ALGDGADU
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 (#813436) Verfasst am: 09.09.2007, 04:11 Titel: |
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| Waldorf hat folgendes geschrieben: |
Werter ALGDGADU,
| ALGDGADU hat folgendes geschrieben: | Na ja, eine Verbindung - wenn man so will - zwischen Steiner und Hubbard gibt es tatsächlich, wenn zugegebenerweise auch sehr weit hergeholt:
[...], wodurch noch bis heute die irrige Annahme besteht, Steiner sei Mitglied des O.T.O. gewesen.
[...] Allerdings dürften Gemeinsamkeiten in der "Lehre" der Anthros und der Scientology so marginal sein, dass sich wahrscheinlich auch die besten Kenner beider Gruppen schwer tun werden, diese aufzuzeigen. |
Sehr wohl - weil es "sehr weit hergeholt" ist und zudem auf einer "irrigen Annahme" beruht, lassen sich die Zusammenhänge allenfalls nur behaupten oder gar fingieren.
Steiner hat tatsächlich niemals persönlichen Kontakt zu der von ihnen erwähnten Operettendiva namens Theodor Reuß gehabt. Den Schriftverkehr hat hauptsächlich Marie Steiner erledigt, wobei Reuß es war der sich bemühte Rudolf Steiner für seine Interessen zu gewinnen. |
Lieber Waldorf,
persönliche Kontakte gab es sehr wohl:
| Zitat: | Theodor Reuss and Rudolf Steiner
It is difficult to pinpoint the date when the first contact between Steiner and Reuss took place.
9 December 1904: In a lecture on the history of Freemasonry in Berlin, Rudolf Steiner quotes a Manifesto by Carl Kellner and Theodor Reuss of 1904 (Steiner: "Die Tempellegende und die Goldene Legende" = Complete Edition [CE] volume 93, 91ff.). This is not an O.T.O.-Manifesto and only a slightly different version from the one published in Reuss' Oriflamme #6 of 1903. The expression "Ordo Templi Orientis" does not yet exist.
There is no evidence for assuming that Carl Kellner (the alleged supplier of the O.T.O.-principles of Hatha Yoga) would have heard of, let alone used, the term "O.T.O.". Kellner probably led the German-language branch of one "Brotherhood of Light", which he had brought as one of the 12 founders from Boston/Chigaco in 1895 to Europe.
Reuss and Kellner do not share the same views on Yoga. Similarly, Franz Hartmann [director of the Leipzig Theosophists] thinks that his friend Kellner is trapped by "false Yogis". Hartmann also distances himself from Reuss in 1904.
7 June 1905: Honorary Grandmaster Carl Kellner 33*, 90*, 96*, "director" of the "inner triangle", the "occult circle" consisting of Franz Hartmann, Reuss, Kellner, dies.
24 June 1905: John Yarker 33*, 90*, 96* gives Reuss 33*, 96*, Franz Hartmann 33*, 95*, and Heinrich Klein 33*, 95*, the grant to work the degrees from the first to the 33*, 90* and 95*. Obviously, Yarker is unaware of the quarrell between Hartmann and Reuss.
In August, Reuss is also sued by the co-founding Swedenborg Rite-members for publishing his magazine "Oriflamme" in 1902 as a purely private concern (i.e. AASR and MM were independently from Reuss' other Orders) with the member's money.
24 November 1905: Rudolf Steiner and Marie von Sivers each pay 45 Marks to Theodor Reuss for their membership in Memphis-Misraim.
The negotiations over the modalities for the guidance of an independent working group still aren't complete.
The following day, 25 November 1905: Steiner writes to Mrs. von Sivers: "Yesterday, you have seen how little has remained from the former esoteric institutions" and he plans to use "the medium of the religion" in its sensual-beautiful form: Religion as "subsequent experience of science and art." (Nevertheless, the later developed Anthroposophical Society is not a body of beliefs - which would have gone against Steiner's expressed intentions, but a body of ideas.)
30 November 1905: "Reuss is not a man who can be trusted ... We have to deal with "a framework" only and not with more [substance] in the reality. Presently nothing at all is behind the thing. The occult powers COMPLETELY withdrew themselves from it."
2 January 1906: For the first time, Steiner gives a lecture to men AND women at the same time and calls "Masonry" (by which he possibly means the irregular AASR and MM rite) "a caricature" "with snoozing forces to be woken up again"; which is "our work to do". Steiner considers it as his "duty to save the Misraim-Dienst for the future." The Misraim-Dienst is to combine Terrestrial with Celestial, Visible with Invisible and to again renew the Eleusinian Mysteries.
3 January 1906: Reuss signs a contract with Steiner making the latter a 30*, 67* and 89* for Berlin. His Misraim-Service is now called "Mystica aeterna". Marie von Sivers is authorized for the accommodation of women. "The exaggerations of the male culture must be back-drawn by the occult forces of the woman" (according to Steiner).
8 January 1906: Reuss travels to London where he intends to build up a "Hermetic School of Science". He is followed by his bad reputation as a freemasonic swindler, an inventor of Orders and merchant of Charters. There also is rumour about alleged indecency.
22 January 1906 is the date which can be read in the alleged first O.T.O.-Constitution, in English, which only in 1912 gets generally known. Emil Adrianyi and Paul Eberhardt, both high degree members of MM at that time, think that O.T.O. was not founded before 1912. This constitution demands that application for O.T.O.-membership must be in writing. It seems that O.T.O. is starting to get developed from some AASR- and MM-degrees.
17 March 1906: In a letter from Theodor Reuss to Franz Hartmann (1838-1912), Reuss complains about Hartmann's assumption that Reuss has "nothing to do anymore with the signing of diplomas etc. etc ..." and "From all this I concluded that you had withdrawn from my M.+M. F.M.Order".
Similarly, Reuss expresses on 27 March 1906, that Emil Adrianyi likewise spreads the "false message"; that the Grandorient and Sovereign Sanctuary of Berlin no longer exist.
On 27 March 1906 Steiner receives a letter from Reuss, in which he is addressed as 33* (AASR) and 95* (Misraim).
Oriflamme issue January-June 1906: Reuss publishes that Steiner is a 33* and 95* of Berlin and Deputy Grandmaster of "Mystica aeterna" with jurisdiction over the members he's able to gather. Marie von Sivers becomes General Grand Secretary for the Lodges of Adoption (MM).
Steiner also uses the expressions "Mystica Eterna" (M.E.) and "Misraim-Dienst" (M.D.). According to their context, these abbreviations refer to the organisation or the content.
Both, Steiner and Reuss make use of the freemasonic terms "Royal Arch" and "Knight of the Eagle and the Pelican" (CE 265, 217). The nine (ten) O.T.O.-degres are not at all the model of the theoretical nine degrees of "Mystica aeterna". "Mystica aeterna" is not an actual organisation similar to an Order or a lodge (although Steiner uses this term in his lesson on 28 October 1911): there are no affiliated foundings, no diplomas, no warrants and the rituals are celebrated in the presence of Rudolf Steiner only, and for and by members of the Theosophical Society, only.
In Steiner's vision, no "Master" supervises outer "Orders", but only the "Esoteric School" is supervised. The "Mystica aeterna" now is considered as second department in Steiner's Esoteric School (also called "Erkenntniskultische Abteilung" = ceremonial realization/gnosis department). The Theosophical department refers more to the idealistic and studying aspect; the masonic rituals more to the practical aspect of the Esoteric Working Group.
21 June 1906 is the date which can be read on the alleged first German O.T.O.-Constitution. Again, every application for O.T.O.-membership must be in writing.
24 June 1906: Since it appears that Steiner's "Mystica aeterna" soon will have more members than Reuss' Order, Reuss separates Memphis from Misraim and also from the 33*; he signs this with the expression "Oriental Templar Freemasons" and uses the templar calendar: "A.O.788".
15 August 1906: In a letter to A.W. Sellin, Rudolf Steiner distances himself from Reuss' activities (if he took note of them at all). For Steiner the person "Reuss" does not play any role, but his transmission of the Misraim rite, i.e. a formal-historical-legally documented tying, in order to create an independent symbolic-ritual reestablishment does. In Reuss' letters to Steiner, Reuss does not give a single acknowledgement of a discussion or writing of Steiner. Steiner makes it "the condition that the Order [that is Reuss' AASR and MM] does NOT communicate ANY of its rituals to me."
"I constituted what has to be constituted, without Mr. Reuss ever being present ... I however IGNORED essentially the Order [Reuss' AASR and MM] completely." Admission to Steiner's Misraim-Dienst is refused to members of Reuss' Order.
On 22 September 1906, Reuss complains to von Sivers that he has not yet received an answer to his letter from one month ago. 1 October 1906, 9 February 1907 and 12 March 1907: Reuss asks for a meeting with Steiner, in vain. In his letter dated 9 February 1907: Reuss confirms that there is no mutual communication between him and Steiner in writing and that he is accepting this.
Pentecoste 1907: The first department of the Esoteric School of Steiner separates from the Esoteric School of Theosophy as Steiner pursues another teaching system. He complains on one hand about Annie Besant's Americanism, i.e. worldliness and on the other hand on her adjustment on Indian traditions which would not have any effect in the West. For Steiner, the breathing is not to be controlled by physical body-exercises, but the bodily effects are to be consequences of the Intuition exercises. Steiner's path does the opposite of what the ancient Yogi did when he blended the thinking and breathing processes.
15 June 1907: Reuss sends Steiner an Edict making Steiner a 33*, 90* and 96* of Berlin and independently acting General Grandmaster of the Sovereign General Grandcouncil of the Mizraim-Rite of Germany. The stationary bears the expressions "Memphis and Mizraim Rite of Masonry. Order of Oriental Templars and Esoteric Rosicrucians".
Reuss signs a.o. with the seal "SOTOM". This paper does not make Steiner either a member of the O.T.O. or its Grandmaster. However, Reuss continues to call himself Grandmaster of Misraim.
From 1907 onwards, his O.T.O. (appearing as "League of International Brotherhood") seeks affiliation to several foreign gnostic and rosicrucian organisations.
24 February 1908 and 17 July 1909: again Reuss bitterly complains that Steiner never answers his letters. The same in 1910.
Since 1906 Reuss does not list Steiner any more in his frequent Order schemas.
1909: Steiner is not specified in the Order schematic of the Oriflamme magazine.
11 February 1910: Reuss informs Steiner that Franz Hartmann "has not been inside a Masonic lodge room since he saw mine at Berlin in 1904, and in fact he is no authority on it anyhow." Except Max Heilbronner and Heinrich Klein, allegedly no one knows about the "actual relations" between Steiner and Reuss.
In March 1910, Aleister Crowley's mexican 33* (of 1900) gets confirmed by Reuss in London as VII* O.T.O.. In November of that year John Yarker also re-activates Crowley's 33*, although Yarker's authorisation to do so has already been cancelled by the Supreme Council of AASR in 1870.
21 April 1912: Crowley becomes Xth O.T.O. of England and Ireland.
1 June 1912: official founding of the National Grandlodge of the O.T.O. in England and Ireland. Regarding Crowley, Reuss calls this "a thing with a juicy taste". Although never a regular freemason, Crowley now considers himself to be the "sole and supreme authority in Freemasonry." The fact of the existence of a Xth O.T.O. in England in 1912 is evidence to the assumption that the O.T.O. in 1912 is considered independent from AASR and MM, which are run by John Yarker at the same time at the same place. Only after Yarker's death in 1913 do Reuss and Crowley think that AASR, MM and O.T.O. are equal and that they have supreme authority over the first.
7 August 1912: Hartmann dies.
Steiner does not appear in the family tree of the O.T.O. heroes in the "Jubelee Issue of the Oriflamme" in 1912, where Carl Kellner and Franz Hartmann, posthumously of course, are brought into the context of Reuss' O.T.O..
In the course of the Krishnamurti affair of the TS, on Christmas 1912 Steiner creates the Anthroposophical Society in Cologne/Germany and separates it from the TS at the turn of the year 1912/13. Up to this time he collected approx. 2500 members. Another 1000, withdrawing from the TS in Europe and America, join soon after.
20 March 1913: John Yarker dies. Now Reuss publishes obvious sexmagical texts. By the outbreak of the War he flees to Germany.
Summer 1914: Steiner stops the meetings of the Esoteric School and ceases use of the expression "Misraim Dienst" (which counts 600 members) in Germany because War conditions make it impossible to hold closed meetings safely. Anyway, at around this time Steiner begins to terminate private consultations and meetings since sufficient published material required for training purposes is present. At Christmas 1914, Steiner marries von Sivers. |
Quelle: http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/steiner.htm (Hervorhebungen von mir!)
Faksimiles (u.a. des Vertrags zwischen Theodor Reuß und Rudolf Steiner über die Aufnahme Steiners in die Yarker- Freimaurere) findest Du hier:
http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/rsdoc.htm
Nur zur Vervollkommnung:
| Zitat: | | Die Gründungsmitglieder des deutschen Memphis-Misaraïm waren Theodor Reuss, Heinrich Klein und Franz Hartmann. Der Begründer der Anthroposophie, Rudolf Steiner, wird am 15. Juni 1907 zum amtierenden General-Großmeister des Ritus ernannt. |
Und hier ein Zitat aus der anthroposophischischen Wiki:
| Zitat: | Reuß und Rudolf Steiner [bearbeiten]
Theodor Reuß war seit 1885 Mitglied der Theosophischen Gesellschaft. Rudolf Steiner leitete die Theosophische Gesellschaft ab 1902 als Generalsekretär des deutschen Zweiges. Steiner soll von Reuß 1906 gegen 1500 Reichsmark ein Patent zum stellvertretenden Großmeister (Rex Summus X° Sanctissimus - Höchster und Heiligster König) des O.T.O./Memphis/Misraim Kapitels und Großkonzils der Rosenkreuzer-Loge „Mystica Aeterna" in Berlin erhalten haben, was Peter-R. König zu widerlegen versucht [1]. Steiners Ehefrau, Marie Sievers, veröffentlichte 1933/34 im Verlag der Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft , dass ihr Mann einer „Arbeitsgruppe“ namens „Mystica aeterna" bis 1914 angehört habe. Frau Steiner gehörte diesem Kreis selber auch als eins der ersten Mitglieder an. Daran knüpft vereinzelte Polemik gegen den Begründer der Anthroposophie. Steiner stand wie Reuß in rosenkreuzerischer oder theosophischer und neognostischer Tradition, und beide haben Adoptionslogen unterstützt, die teilweise freimaurerisch orientiert waren. Dabei lehnte Steiner die libertinistisch-gnostischen Ausformungen der Hochgrade durch Reuß und Crowley ab. Reuß und Steiner sollen dem Ordo Rosicrusianum angehört haben. Steiner gründete 1912 die Anthroposophische Gesellschaft und beendete seine Zusammenarbeit mit Reuß 1914.
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Quelle: http://wiki.anthroposophie.net/Theodor_Reu%C3%9F (Hervorhebung des letzten Halbsatzes durch mcih!)
| Waldorf hat folgendes geschrieben: | | Natürlich hat Steiner das Patent "gekauft" und musste für jeden weiteren Beitritt (für jede neu aufgenommene Person) eine Gebühr an den Lizenzgeber zahlen. Ab der tausendsten Person wurde diese Regel hinfällig und die "Gebühren" mussten nicht mehr entrichtet werden, was Rudolf Steiner relativ schnell erreichte. Dieser Erfolg dürfte wohl auch bei der Person Rudolf Steiner zu suchen sein. Es mag einige gute Gründe für ihn gegeben haben die Theosophische Gesellschaft auch organisatorisch an die Freimaurer anzuschliessen, die legale Verwendung der Kulte und der Rituale, etc. wäre z.B. so ein Grund. Mir ist es allerdings immer noch ein Rätsel warum er sich dann ausgerechnet von einem Typen wie Reuß behilflich sein liess. Gut - ich weiss nicht sehr viel über die Geschichte der Freimaurer in Deutschland und ob Rudolf Steiner hier wirklich eine Alternative, und wenn ja welche, gehabt hätte. |
Naja, Reuss war ein Scharlatan, auf den viele hereingefallen sind, u.a. auch Steiner. Wobei man zu Steiners Ehrenrettung sagen muss, dass er den Charakter von Reuss wohl ziemlich schnell erkannt hat und irgendwann dann anfing, selbigen zu ignorieren bzw. auf dessen Briefe nicht mehr zu reagieren(das alles kannst Du u.a. in den von mir oben erwähnten Quellen nachlesen).
| Waldorf hat folgendes geschrieben: | | Die These das Rudolf Steiner sich von der Theosophischen Gesellschaft getrennt habe, wird auch von einigen Anthroposophen gern vertreten. M.E. war er nicht der "Spalter". Vielmehr war das eine u.A. auch ganz pragmatische Reaktion auf schwerwiegende Meinungsverschiedenheiten innerhalb der T.G., die es ihm erschwert haben (z.B. in England) zu Mitgliedern zu sprechen, die ihn gerne hören wollten. Die Gründung der Anthroposophischen Gesellschaft war eine konsequente Reaktion auf vielerlei solcher Hindernisse die ihm bereitet wurden. |
Ich weiss nicht, ob meine Information hierzu stimmt, aber nach dieser soll die Hauptursache gewesen sein, dass die Theosophie den damals noch jünglichen Krishnamurti zum "Guru" ernannt hat und Steiner das nicht mittragen wollte.
| Waldorf hat folgendes geschrieben: | | Sein Freimaurer-Diplom hat er dann kurz nach Ausbruch des ersten Weltkrieges zerrissen. |
Das hätte er mit diesen Reuss-Diplomen schon viel früher tun sollen.
Meine Vermutung zu dem ganzen Thema war ja eigentlich auch nur: wenn Steiner Elemente des Memphis-Misraim-Ritus in seine Anthroposophie übernommen haben sollte und dies ja beim O.T.O., dessen Oberhaupt später Crowley werden sollte und Hubbard dort Mitglied war, der Crowley gewisse O.T.O.-Inhalte geklaut hat, dass es dann zumindest eine theoretische Möglichkeit gibt, dass Hubbard und Steiner "etwas gemeinsam" haben (das war nämlich die Frage im Thread, was beide gemeinsam hätten). Dass dies - wie Du schreibst - weit hergeholt ist, hatte ich ja gleichselbst eingeräumt. 
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